The Cost of Change

[00:00:00]

Jennie: Episode three.

Ryan: Episode three.

Very exciting again.

Jennie: Yeah.

Ryan: So what are we talking about today?

Jennie: The cost of change.

Ryan: Cost of change?

Jennie: Yeah.

Ryan: Yep. Yeah, we were talking with my parents last night and I mentioned something about the USC game, and my dad said, "Oh, I didn't know you were a fan." And I don't know if you noticed this on the call, but we could see our, our faces 'cause we're on FaceTime, and so I noticed it. My smile dimmed a little bit.

It was interesting for me because I actually felt it in the moment, and that is, I think, evidence of change for... evidence of some sort of growth in the sense that I can notice the things that hurt or the things that bother me [00:01:00] a little more close to real time than I ever used to be able to do. It's like, "Why am I... Like, why did that hurt my feelings a little bit?" And I think I just kinda landed on the idea that, um, because we've been moving more and more apart in our own separate worlds for all these years now, uh, like I'm a little less known to my dad than I used to be, and it, it's not a condemnation of him at all.

It's more just something that I found a little curious. I thought to myself, "I've been a USC fan since I was, like, eight years old." So that just got me thinking, and I think that's right along the lines of what we wanted to talk about today, just the idea of change always having some sort of cost.

What comes up for you as I tell that little story?

Jennie: If change is happening, [00:02:00] it doesn't just affect us, it affects our relationships. This has been the first year we haven't really seen your parents more than twice in the year, and it sounds like it's only gonna be three times.

And so due to how long we haven't really been seeing them, there hasn't been that kind of relationship that we used to have.

That interaction with your dad kind of highlighted maybe the change that's happened in both of you that you haven't been a part of together.

Ryan: Exactly. That's really what I was thinking too, that there's, it's really just a change in circumstance and the presence, the proximity is more distant.

So we've both changed over that time. A lot of our change was kind of gradual and slow. I think it just was a way, I don't know, like a little [00:03:00] picture of some of the ways that we've grown more distant from one another.

Jennie: Mm-hmm.

It's kind of an interesting change for you because for as long as I've known you, it's always been, "How do I understand the world?" Like, "I don't understand. I'm trying to figure this out." And it's almost like there's been a shift for you from that to, "What's going on with me? How do I understand myself in this moment, and what's going on, and who do I wanna be right now?"

Ryan: Yeah. It has. It's been a really big shift for me. The, the shift really is, if I were to try to sum it up, that most of my life, I was looking for the answer. Like, the, the one true story of what's going on here. Like, who are we? What's the nature of the universe? Like, is this story of God and heaven, is that, like, the real [00:04:00] story?

And several years ago, that changed. I realized what I kind of landed on was, I don't think anyone really knows. That's not really an answerable question from within the frame that I'm living in. There's nowhere to go. There's nowhere to stand outside of the experience of life and the world.

I'm a part of it, and I'm shaped by it. And so that's been the big change. It's a conceptual change. Instead of looking for the right answer, it's been, "I don't think anyone knows, so now what?" How do I actually live here? How do I find meaning and purpose without just descending into nihilism, where nothing matters? That's been a major shift for me.

Jennie: So what has that cost you? W- what has that change, that shift cost you?

Ryan: It's cost me a lot actually.

Some of the consequences of this [00:05:00] change for me have been really positive and others have been harder. Uh, on the harder side, I think it's probably been primarily relational. It's created more distance. So kind of where I was opening with that idea of the distance between me and my dad.

It's like we're living more and more in different conceptual worlds, not just different states in the United States. It's not just a physical distance, it's a conceptual distance. And that continues to widen, I think. So we're kind of moving apart in that way, in some ways, not in all ways, but certainly in some.

And that hasn't cost me relationship entirely with anyone in our family. It's not been a deal breaker, but it certainly opened up space or distance [00:06:00] relationally.

So it's interesting to even think about it this way, right? Because my sort of conceptual shift, my sort of faith deconstruction preceded yours.

Jennie: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: But it also was simultaneous in some ways. Like yours, maybe we've, like you've ended up with some more stable conclusions a little bit more late than I have, or a little bit after me.

But my change was affecting you, and your change w- and it, yeah, it's like this cyclical, iterative thing that's going on.

Jennie: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: What has, what have been some of the harder costs for you with some of this kind of big-picture change?

Jennie: I think for me, a lot of my journey, a lot of the cracks in my faith deconstruction had to do relationally.

You know, just trying to find a place that we fit. And then almost like [00:07:00] trying to change or fix or reform the system from within. Like having these big ideas of, having, an intentional community, and we're gonna try and create this community and have a farm and trying to live off the land and-

Ryan: Yeah, like a demonstration plot almost.

Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. And that ended very painfully. And then, like thinking about, just... I know we were talking about this this morning about how ultimately I was the one that said, "I can't do church anymore." And you even went, I don't know for how much longer, without me. And then-

Ryan: Which is interesting because I was just saying, yeah, my, my sort of faith was very, very different by that point.

It was like I don't, I don't really [00:08:00] buy this story anymore. But I still wanna participate in this relational world. So I was choosing to stay while you were kind of stepping away. Which is kind of interesting.

Jennie: Yeah.

Ryan: Anyway, continue on.

Jennie: Yeah. And, um, so it is interesting how we've kind of had more of a parallel journey. I think I kind of held on to the idea that I could maybe try and fix things, change things from within, and while at the same time trying to figure out how to operate in a world that I was constantly being told no or wait or move over. And so kind of the final moment [00:09:00] was just realizing I didn't have a place that I thought I had in the church that we were in.

And I was just, "I'm, I'm, I'm done. I can't do it anymore."

Ryan: It was too painful?

Jennie: Yeah, it was too painful. Yeah. It was too... I didn't wanna be a part of something anymore that continued to push me aside and not, yeah, not invite me in. And so part of it was I was in my last semester of seminary, and so here I was after three years of seminary, toward the end, writing my final [00:10:00] capstone paper on the missing element in the spiritual formation movement was community. And here we were choosing to walk away from our community. And I don't know how much of that was... I mean, it was a choice, but it was also, feeling like I just didn't have a home anymore there.

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting to look back on that time and think through, like part of the cost is the tuition.

Uh, but for me, part of the cost was, "Okay, I'm gonna step away as well. I'm gonna leave this group of people where I've found somewhat of a place to exist with others." Um, and there were, [00:11:00] like, real meaningful relationships there for both of us.

Jennie: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: Uh, it's also just thinking about the, some of the contingency, like the haphazardness of, of it all.

Like, it was also in a time, like, the, the context was just post-COVID, where COVID really exposed a lot of divisions amongst people in, certainly not just our church, but churches all across the country and all over the world, really, and political divisions and all that kind of stuff. And so our church was no different, and that for me was one of the things that was difficult to see because I really was, I think, naive enough to think that we had found, a church that was a little bit different, like, this, um-

Jennie: We found the church.

Ryan: Yeah, like this church that was into spiritual formation [00:12:00] and, I thought, community.

Jennie: Well, if you think about the other stuff that was going on around that time, yes, there was COVID. Our church pretty much lost half its members.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Our daughter was starting to have some pretty severe mental health issues. We didn't know what was going on. It wasn't just our church, but our families were really, on both sides, different, ended up on different ends of the political spectrum. So there were difficult conversations that happened on both sides.

Ryan: Yeah.

Jennie: And yeah, I had a pretty awful experience with a spiritual director. Probably should have gone to therapy. Now I'm in therapy. But really stirred up a lot of, like, self-doubt and pain. Oh, and then I was passed up for a position at the church, and then I asked if I could have my name [00:13:00] put forward for being considered for ordination, and the priest refused to put my name forward.

And so, I mean, there was just a lot going on at that time. Yeah. So you have this, all the past narratives and stories that we're raised in, which for me included, you know, being the daughter of a pastor, being a woman in, steeped in purity culture. You've got all the belief systems from like James Dobson on, on out, and, uh, you've got the, "No, you can't preach, or maybe you can preach if a man's on the stage," or...

So it's all these, "You can, you can be here. Oh, no, but you have to be, you can only serve in the children's department. You can be director, but you can't be pastor." And so there were all these stipulations on who I could be. [00:14:00] And here I felt like we had finally found a place where all of those were taken apart, but they weren't.

Yeah. And on top of that, I had just continued going on. Keep, keep moving. "Okay, we'll try this place. We'll try this place. We'll try this place." And then it just came to a point to where it wasn't just our family, it wasn't just our church. It was our daughter. It was, um, other, other things in our lives that just started crumbling, and I was like, "I can't do it."

Ryan: Yeah, the culture around us was changing significantly. Things were getting, in my mind, darker and much more conspiratorial, angrier. Um, that was very disorienting, wasn't it?

Jennie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

So going back to the question, what was the cost of change?

Ryan: [00:15:00] Mm-hmm.

Jennie: It was pretty significant, at least when it came to stepping away from the church and finally making that decision, but it was a lot of changes and choices and, um, that kinda built up to that.

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. I like to think of that in terms of, um, I don't know, like complexity stuff, like homeostasis or whatever.

Like, there are these stable states, almost, where things can change, but they're still... So if you think of a larger pattern, like the smaller things can change, but the larger pattern still remains. Uh, until it doesn't, and then that's like the tipping point kind of idea.

Jennie: Mm.

Ryan: So things tend to settle in a groove, so to speak, until something destabilizes it enough [00:16:00] to cause a larger break.

Jennie: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: Yeah.

Jennie: Yeah, then you just have to try and figure out how to stabilize back up, and sometimes it takes a while.

Ryan: Exactly. Yeah, I feel like that's what, um, a lot of people coming into therapy are in. It's these destabilizing changes that have happened, or maybe they're realizing that there's a cost also of not changing.

There's a cost to, to staying in the system that is producing some of that stuff for us. What do you think would've been some of the cost of not changing in the environment you're describing?

Jennie: So I think the cost of not changing would have been continuing to just put my head down and ignore the pain I was feeling.

[00:17:00] Um, just continuing to live in a system that put these very strong parameters on me.

I wouldn't be a therapist. Maybe would have looked for another job at a different church as a secretary or something.

I don't know.

Ryan: Or we could have gone to an Episcopal church or something like that.

Jennie: That's true. Could have gone to an Episcopal church, yeah. Or started our own.

Ryan: Yep.

Jennie: Which was definitely something we had thought about.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: But not something we ever would've followed through on.

Ryan: Yeah. That is true.

That is true.

Jennie: Yeah. Hmm.

Ryan: It was never a great fit for me. I just wouldn't be-

Jennie: Yeah.

Ryan: I- I wouldn't be good in it.

Jennie: Yeah.

Ryan: Like, I'm too... Yeah, anyway, it probably wouldn't have gone very-

Jennie: You're too what?

Ryan: I remember sitting with, [00:18:00] with Todd one time tr- talking about, like, starting our own thing. And do you remember he said, I think he called out something in me pretty quickly, probably in one of our early meetings with him, and he said something to the effect of, "There's a big difference between a pastor and a prophet."

Jennie: Mm.

Ryan: And, um, looking back, I think that was pretty insightful on his part. 'Cause if you think of what a prophet does, a prophet, in my mind anyway, just holds up a mirror to the community and... yeah. Well, the community at some, at some level, whatever scale you wanna think of it. But, um, it could just be within your local congregation or whatever. It could be in, in the broader society or something like that, but that's just all I think of when I think of the role of a prophet. I don't think of it as a fortune [00:19:00] teller or someone that's, like, got a direct line to God or something like that.

It's just, here's a person that will call out contradictions as he or she sees them in, in the community, in the community of practice. I don't know, maybe it sounds weird to say that about myself, but that is kinda how I think of some of... It's one of the ways I make sense of all the resistance I encounter in life, uh, from authority figures.

They don't ever seem to like me, and it took me a long time to understand why, and I think that is probably why. I just, I question, and I prod, and I say, like, "Oh, that sounds like a contradiction." And sometimes I say it sarcastically 'cause I don't have any power or any voice, so.

Jennie: Which is interesting 'cause that goes back to our other episode of why are questions so [00:20:00] threatening.

Ryan: Yeah.

Jennie: And it's not, you don't do it to try and come off as threatening, but people, systems tend to receive questions as threatening.

Ryan: Yeah, I don't think it's anything about me. It's just, it's not about me at all.

Jennie: Right.

Ryan: Yeah, like we said, like, like you're calling out the questions make us look, and looking tends to bring about change.

Jennie: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: And now we're saying there's a cost to that.

Jennie: Yeah. Yeah, so the, there's a cost to change. There's a cost to not change. Yeah. So what are the benefits to change?

Ryan: The benefits of change.

Well, I think you mentioned one already. It opens up new possibilities.

Jennie: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: Like, new horizons of possibility anyway. So you mentioned one of the costs of not changing might have been that you never would have become a therapist. [00:21:00] That you'd be different than you are right now. If you had chosen a different alternative back then, that would have closed off certain possibilities for the future. Um, which is, I think, this is a sidebar, but I think it's another reason change is a little bit scary for people, because we don't know if it's gonna be worth it or not. Because you don't, you can't know the outcome. It's not really deterministic.

Jennie: Well, and to follow that up is I can't tell you how many people come into the therapy room and share what's going on and then say, "What should I do?"

Ryan: Yeah.

Jennie: And I can't tell you what to do. Change is something, like, change is a choice, and a therapist, any person in your life, I mean, you have to be the one to do it.

You have to make that choice.

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, I think I would say, I'd probably push back on that a little bit. Like, [00:22:00] change can be a choice, but I would also say change is a constant. We're always changing. We live in a very dynamic world. And we're dynamic beings. It's, it's just sort of constant. And then some things arise to the level of consciousness where we make a, a conscious decision.

Jennie: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I, I would agree with that. I guess some, some change.

Ryan: Yeah. But I think you're absolutely right. I, I have clients come in all the time that are looking for some degree of certainty. They want to be... They wanna feel better. They wanna feel more safe and secure and certain that if they make a certain choice, that it's gonna turn out the way that they want.

Jennie: Yeah.

Ryan: And that's not anything anyone can give them. I mean, that's-

Jennie: Right.

Ryan: Yeah.

Jennie: Right.

Ryan: And I certainly know that feeling.

Jennie: Mm-hmm. [00:23:00]

Ryan: Yeah.

Jennie: Yeah, I think that was one of the scariest things about leaving our church, was we didn't know what things were gonna look like. Yeah. We had no idea. I mean, on top of that, it was, uh, we didn't know if our daughter was going to live.

We didn't know what we were gonna do about our, you know, financially. We, you know, there was just a lot we didn't know. We, we didn't know if we were still gonna have friends from our community.

Ryan: Yep. Yeah, it is difficult. Yeah, I think that's why a lot of times people choose not to change like that or make those big decisions to step away from a community or a relationship or something like that. Like imagine, I mean, we have clients that have struggled with the idea of leaving marriages, um, or trying to work through difficult [00:24:00] relationships with parents or friends or whatever, and sometimes the cost is high. And, or I mean, the cost is always high to think about stepping out of a, a relationship like that, but-

Jennie: Well, and I think some of the most painful comments I got were from people still within the system.

Ryan: What do you mean?

Jennie: I very specifically remember hearing comments like, uh, "You've never found a community, a church community that you fit in," like who's the common denominator there? Um, and comments like, "Well, you have to be plugged in somewhere, um, if you're gonna keep growing in the faith." Um, it's just like there's just this dogmatic belief within the system we were a part of that if you're not doing certain things, [00:25:00] you're, you're just wrong.

Oh, uh, my favorite is, um, "No church is a perfect church, and a church is full of people, and people hurt people." Um, that's not the big C Church.

I still have a lot of healing to do. Yeah. Um, I think there's something about when people are in that amount of pain, and then they're met with judgment or excuses or, um, attitudes of, "Well, maybe you're the problem, 'cause we couldn't be the problem," I think there's a sort of alienation that happens, and it's crushing. Or it can be crushing. And so where else is that person supposed to go? Yeah. [00:26:00] I mean, they can stay and, like, try and keep believing that maybe they're the problem.

Ryan: So that would be part of the cost of not changing would be conforming to that. But the benefit would be to try and stay in that sort of relational field. Um, but I think it also speaks to just the inherent, uh, threat of change.

Jennie: Mm.

Ryan: Because what you're describing, I think, is not so much about you, it's about the people who are being affected by your change.

Jennie: Mm.

Ryan: Because that is also true. That's part of the process of change is that it's not just individual change.

Like, your decision to step away from the church and then to cease going to church altogether [00:27:00] for what- however many years it's been now, that then gets received as, like, input into other people's perspectives, and that, that somehow says something to them about themselves almost. Like, it's almost like you're condemning their perspective, even though you're not. It's just saying, like, "I'm stepping out of this. This no longer works for me."

Jennie: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: And they're kind of operating in a system that has... Like, it, there's no category for that other than you are a backslidden Christian or something like that. W- so you asked about kind of the, the benefits of change, and if, if I kind of follow that thread, one of the benefits that I've experienced through this, and I think you described this to...

Like, you used this imagery a couple months ago. I think you were saying that you were feeling like people around you have [00:28:00] this idea that, um, there's no way... Well, you even just said it. There's no way to grow. Like, you can't grow or be healthy. You're gonna be some sort of nihilist, um, terrible person if you're not a Christian anymore.

But you described it as not so much a closing, but more of an opening, like a freedom. And not a freedom from that perspective, but a freedom to open up the field. And you, you talked about, I think you used this imagery. Like, you felt like you were exiting sort of a canyon, like a slot canyon, and you could see the open horizon.

Like, you're out on the plains, and there's this big vista of possibilities out in front of you, like an expansion.

Jennie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I see people differently. And I see stories differently, it's not this agenda-driven, "I, I need to get to know this person so that [00:29:00] I can save their soul." It's, it's this... And I'm not saying everyone's like that. Oh, um-

Ryan: But that, I think you were saying that's kind of how you used to think, right?

Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's more this, "I wanna get to know this person because I genuinely care about their story and where they came from and how they got here, and the choices and the pain and the, the beauty that brought them here."

Ryan: So I think that's why that mantra of ours works for us so well, 'cause I think we're both that way. And what I mean by the mantra is the, the idea that we wanna create a safe place for others to find their own lonely way in the world.

'Cause there's no agenda there, really. It's more, yeah, this is the world we live in. We've been shaped by it. All of us are shaped by it, and we didn't choose that. Actually, this is something I'm playing around with with my clients a [00:30:00] lot recently, is like the idea that understanding the backstory, understanding the worlds into which we're thrown, so to speak.

And our personal histories and for some people, like significant traumas and things like that. But all the events of our lives really, like understanding all the context can be very helpful, and we can start to observe the effect that's had on our nervous system and our thinking and, and we can then start to see our patterns of reactivity and response, and then sort of open that space to then become more capable of choosing a different route, like a different, a different alternative.

But one of the things I've been playing around with is that that's great. That's very, very helpful. But it's just explanatory. It's not, it doesn't, uh, it's not excusatory. I mean, it doesn't... Like, we still have to make choices. We're still responsible for the [00:31:00] things that we do and the people that we become within the possibility structures that the world, uh, provides. So you can't just become anything you want. Like, you're not able to change in all ways. There are constraints because we live in a world.

Jennie: So we've talked about the cost of change.

We've talked about the cost of not change. Now, I think where I'm still trying to figure out, and where I still find I struggle is, and I think it would fall into the cost of change, is how do I, where I'm at, have a relationship with people who are still within the system I've come out of that feels [00:32:00] okay for me.

And I think that's where I'm, where my big struggle is, is I'm over here and they're still over here, and I can't expect them to come over where I'm at. And so I still desire a closeness and a relationship with them, but there's a, a grief.

Ryan: Yeah.

So, this is my perspective on it anyway. I think you're exactly right. Like, there's no way to go back to what it was. It's changed, and so there is a cost. And that cost for you, for me as well, has been pretty heavy relationally.

Um, and even just our decision to move [00:33:00] here, like that's been... There's been huge benefits to that, 'cause it's opened up a whole bunch of possibilities for, uh, vocation and for our kids and all that, but there's been costs for all of us as well. Uh, but you're right, there's no way to bridge the two worlds entirely.

Like, we have diverged from a conceptual world that's, uh, a pretty all-encompassing one, right? We, we came out of, um, a world that doesn't have a lot of space for people that aren't in that world, other than to do what you said, "Let's bring them into the fold." "Let's save them from eternal damnation," or whatever.

I kind of think about it the way I think of the culture and just kind of democracy and what we're trying to do here is hold the tension of living in a pluralistic society.

I guess the way I think of it is, [00:34:00] um, to try and show up as the person that you wanna be.

Jennie: Mm.

Ryan: Um, and just continually meet people where they are. Next, continue to just create that safe place for others to find their own lonely way.

And, uh, that's not for others to come into alignment with your way of looking at things. It's for them to find their own way and to be okay with that.

But that's, that's the hard part. So then I think the, the move there is to continually monitor that, like we were talking about. That's kind of like what I was saying with my dad. Like, this trivial little throwaway line, "Oh, I didn't realize you were a fan." And then I notice, like, hey, that actually kind of hurt. Uh, why did that hurt?

Jennie: Mm.

Ryan: Not really because my dad doesn't remember that I was a fan since I was eight. Like, I d- who cares? It's not even a big deal.

It's more just like, oh, that hurts because [00:35:00] there's a little more distance there than I was aware of. And so then you see that, and okay, what does that mean? Like, how am I gonna respond to that? Uh, and the more, the more practice I get at that, the easier it is for me to then see things differently, 'cause I can see it from his perspective a little more. And he didn't mean anything by it. And if we talked about it, I'm sure he would remember going to USC when we were down here to visit my brothers.

Jennie: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: But anyway, that's... I know that's not an answer. It's more of a process. I don't know about you, but this is the kind of thing I tell my clients all the time is, like, that's, that's the move, really.

I don't, I mean, I don't have much else other than, like, you just keep trying. Keep showing up.

Jennie: It's interesting. It makes me think of, some of the trainings I've done in grief and loss and bereavement. If someone dies, the [00:36:00] healing and grief process, it's not forgetting they ever existed.

It's integrating their lived life and their loss into your life. Yeah. So, what I hear you saying is learning to integrate that pain and that grief into your life. And yes, you may have lost part of the relationship by stepping out of the system.

At the same time, recognizing that grief as it comes up and acknowledging it within myself, "Okay, why did this hurt?" Or first, "This hurt." Yeah. And maybe trying to recognize why did it hurt. And is it because I feel the loss and the distance? Or is it because I know the relationship will never be what I would like it to be?

It has more to do with me than that person.

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's [00:37:00] really good insight, and I think we were talking about this the other day also, the idea... Like, I asked you even, like, what stage of, if this is grief, what stage do you think you're, you're at? And I was making fun of myself 'cause I think it was a leading question.

I think I even said, like, "I'm trying to get you to say you're in negotiation," or something like that. Yeah. And like you're trying to, uh, have it both ways and it, you just can't. It, it's different.

Jennie: Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah. The world that you stepped into is different. Yeah. I think integrating that is the right way to say it.

I like that. The other thing I wanna say too is, uh, kinda related to your doctoral work, not that I wanna bring all that into the conversation right at the moment, but one of the ways I think that helps is it gives us some new language. So instead of just acceptance, it's locating: where am I right now, and then how am I gonna [00:38:00] respond? Like, how am I gonna choose to live? And that's the direction part.

Jennie: Right.

Ryan: And I think what we were saying the other day is it, it seems like you're, you keep kinda cycling back into the noise part of it. And which is probably confusing for people listening to this, but, uh, that's something we'll unpack shortly here.

Jennie: Yeah.

Ryan: Because you just got approved to bring your dissertation to the review board and can start your research very soon. That's exciting.

Jennie: I'm very excited. Yes. And then I feel like maybe I'll, it'll be a little more legitimate to bring it forward. Yeah. Even though a lot of what we've been talking about encompasses it.

Ryan: Oh, yeah, it's deeply embedded in all of this. It's-

Jennie: Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah.

I'm very excited.

Jennie: I'm excited too. Yeah.

So the cost of change.

Ryan: What do you think? Think we got it? I think- Figured it out? [00:39:00]

Jennie: I think we got enough for this episode.

Ryan: Yeah?

Jennie: Yeah.

Ryan: Well, we'll see what people think.

Jennie: Yeah, I guess so.

Ryan: Is anyone listening?

Jennie: Like, makes me think of like, "Hello, is anybody listening?"

Ryan: Pink Floyd song?

Jennie: Pink Floyd song.

Ryan: Is there anybody out there?

Jennie: Is anyone out there?

Ryan: Now that haunting song is in my head.

Jennie: Yeah. I love it. Hmm.

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